thinking of hybrid ecology 2

October 5, 2007

I have an idea what i want to do in augmented (hybrid reality) where some narrative and visual artifacts are tagged, which people can find with mobile phones, plus the place itself has a lot of objects around.

I want to try out how this new content changes actions, objects in the environment, and how objects in the environment and actions would change content of these artifacts.

I think it is like the 3 dimension system: one is some objects in the envitonment, second is actors (subjects), third are different artifacts and meanings and art etc. Actions are like flow in this system.

What is complicated, is to start seeing it as patterns, because especially the 1 and 3 dimension elements are changing in these patterns into tools and back.

What i am interested in is, the patterns in hybrid ecology.

In computerbased systems you create something verbally, by typing, drawing..and at some moment it serves like the tool, at another moment it is hanging out there and is a potential object to become back into the tool when someone starts using it in actions for realizing some goals.

I was discussing these issues yesterday with Anatole again. There were some interesting ideas i would like to keep.

Anatole pierre Fuksas 10/4/07 10:28 PM
so, for instance, the sand castle story we was discussing yesterday may fit your 3rd layer
whereas the beach subjects are walking on fits the 1st
and the subjects themselves fits the second?

Kai Pata 10/4/07 10:28 PM
yes, for a while when we talk, we use the story as a tool

Anatole pierre Fuksas 10/4/07 10:29 PM
why do you feel like that story works as a tool
in my understanding that story just enanches the setting by means of descriptions
basically implements stuff into your 1st layer
by means of mirror matching vehiculated by sentences

as in, you feel like the castle is there even if it’s not
(as the sound of an helicopter performed by a sound blaster behind your back, the helicopter isn’t there but you feel like it is before you turn)

Kai Pata 10/4/07 10:30 PM
a tool is every item what i need to perform an action – either real action or imagined action
if you want to explain me something, you shift something from the environment to be this narrated tool for me..and i shift this narrated tool back into the environment doing some action on the basis of it

see on left side..and right side..What i think happens between the layers is this embodiment and externalization.

Anatole pierre Fuksas 10/4/07 10:39 PM
Natural environments and narrative environments are of course different in terms that the second one is not directly experienced by senses but by words referring to perception, action and related emotions

Kai Pata 10/4/07 10:40 PM
But if words, phrases are like objects?

Anatole pierre Fuksas 10/4/07 10:41 PM
still, for a narrative environment to actually work and being of some interest, it has to trigger perceptually related action potential by means of descriptions

Kai Pata 10/4/07 10:41 PM
i think narrative (language) mediates something what is behind it, and the real environment with its elements and objects does the same

Anatole pierre Fuksas 10/4/07 10:42 PM
They both refer to actions that may be performed by?

Kai Pata 10/4/07 10:43 PM
As soon as you start using something from the environment, you create a bond over affordances, and this object becomes into something in this system, you embody this object through affordances, and it is like the tool in the scheme.

when organisms evolved and they developed different senses..do you think the environment they perceive and use for actions is so much different of the voice-sounds what we also perceive?
if you touch blinded way things, you perceive them, voice is like touching too..and both ways you create this something in this interaction,
that enables you to act on the basis of it, get emotions too..i dont know what first
if you think of language now, then narrated language is just more culturally defined
same is environment what we use

if we think of signs we use to write down narrations, different signs probably are like objects..i just started to think of hieroglyphes and different languages, does writing down narration become (when in sign) something special of its own, that has more dimensions and affordances than just spoken sign?..and also spoken sign depends of how it is said

let’s put it this way, may words work as objects and tools they refer to?
I mean, you are on that beach, i say bucket and showel, you feel like you might start digging hole in the sand filling the plastic bucket
still, if we sit on the sand and i tell you once I wrote my name on the sand with my finger I am probably enanching the environment (your layer 1) by means of description
I mean, my words directly complement the natural landscape without acting as tools

Kai Pata 10/4/07 10:59 PM
they are always mediated through someone who perceives
let me try to understand that drawing on the sand
if you wrote the name on the sand and left, it is there as part of the environment..i can perceive it as it triggers my emotions, and what affordances for action it gives to me..and it may not be the same as it affords for you..

after you wrote it, you shifted, externalised it to the environment (in my scheme)..it is same as you wrote a post in blog..and it is now part of something different.
ok..you actually say the words now to me about the name on sand, then it seems a bit different!

Anatole pierre Fuksas: 23:05:02
I mean, if I say I feel like writing something with my finger, words as ‘finger and write’ may trigger action potential working as a tool and you may start wondering what I may eventually write, or feel on the skin of your arm the touch of a finger writing something as it was on the sand

Anatole pierre Fuksas: 23:06:38
i mean, the first case triggers potential that is not related to features yet embedded into the landscape

Kai Pata: 23:06:43
for me i see the two things are different..if you leave something behind, or if you just now say/do it and i watch you saying/doing

Anatole pierre Fuksas: 23:07:22
yes of course, but I am still just talking about descriptions, I mean, I am not moving I am not actually writing with my finger
just describing two different things
the will of writing with my finger
and a word I once wrote with my finger

Kai Pata: 23:09:52
ok..is it like this..
i am like the monkey, i observe you doing something and i think/relate it with my goal and i am feeling some emotions as if i was you doing it..
this is the same as you tell me on writing (because telling and seeing feels same to me due to this mirroring thing)…
in another case, you said it by really externalising, embodying it to the environment and left,
will i be able of feeling the same as in first case?

Anatole pierre Fuksas: 23:10:31
that’s even more tricky

Kai Pata: 23:11:18
but for me it is the main thing what they havent discovered yet.
Neural studies have proved the case 1 with watching and with hearing, but not the case 2
and basically what you try to say on my opinion is about case 2 to work same frames

Anatole pierre Fuksas: 23:12:06
you mean if emotions attached to verbalized actions referring to past actions or to action that have not yet been performed feel the same as the ones perceived while being performed?
you are right, this is still disputed, there is still not any sort of neurological evidence supporting one view or another

Kai Pata: 23:13:25
i mean, will they feel the same if the actual origin of the action the one who did it /said it and had connections with it 1) has left and you are on your own with that ‘object’
on my activity system with affordances..i would say they don’t feel the same, as some component of the system is off

some ways it may be the same ‘mystic’ person if the action/verbalised action is there or if just the sign or object was left..but what i think, if the guy is off the picture, then you are getting something less from the sign/object because
i) they are like having interaction while they are together?
ii) or because the guy has interaction with the thing and other elements around when there? or
iii) does all of it play some ways on your awareness etc
Do u say something you keep having interaction with this thing until yo are on the play
like you keep this saying on the string and don’t let it lose, and thus it is different

Anatole pierre Fuksas: 23:24:20
not sure, I am thinking about clues being eventually MORE effective if origin is off the picture 😀

Kai Pata: 23:24:40
effective is tricky
but if to take Lotman stance again..then you are right
as soon as the author is off the picture, the other can translate (or you used encode) how he likes without any common area where he knows how to translate, and this is suppoesd to be more creative, making the birth of new things, bringing new elements into system, creating semiosis


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